The Anxiety Society - Morra Aarons-Mele

[00:00:08] Speaker A: Welcome to our next episode in our Work Healthy podcast series. I'm John Ryan, and thanks for joining us. Today's topic is anxiety, and we're delighted to have an expert on that subject, someone who herself has suffered, but has found a way to turn it into a strength. Maura Ahrens Melaye is the author of Hiding in the Bathroom and the Anxious Achiever, and has her own LinkedIn podcast series, also called the Anxious Achiever, which is currently on episode 141 and counting. Maura is on a mission to reframe how we think about anxiety and mental health in the workplace. Anxiety disorders are the most common mental illness, and she believes that we need better models for leadership and a more holistic view of mental health. In today's podcast, we learn about the difference between stress, depression, and anxiety. The different types of anxiety, the triggers you face, and how you can use your anxiety to be a better leader. Unusually. Today, we start with a poem from. [00:01:13] Speaker B: Maura's book, Performance without rehearsal, Body without alterations, head without premeditation. I know nothing of the role I play. I only know it's mine. I can't exchange it. I have to guess on the spot just what this play is all about. Ill prepared for the privilege of living, I can barely keep up with the pace that the action demands. I improvise, although I loathe improvisation. Now, if that is life, and if that is the life we're leading, then my first question to you, Maura, is, why is everybody not anxious all of the time? [00:02:00] Speaker C: Oh, gosh, I love that poem. Thank you so much for reading it. It's been months since I've looked at it, Right. And I just love it so much. That's actually from my minister at the church I go to, the Unitarian Universalist Church. I think most people are anxious a lot. You know, anxiety is a natural emotion. It's part of the human cond. And when we're thrust into experiences that tax us, times that are very uncertain, we feel very anxious, you know, and so I think a lot of us are improvising all the time, even though we're terrified of improvisation. [00:02:42] Speaker B: And life itself is a struggle, I think often, oftentimes when, you know, when you kind of come to that conclusion and share that with people, they kind of go, it is, isn't it? Like, it's. It's messy. [00:02:58] Speaker C: Life is a struggle. And, you know, even. Even those of us who are very privileged in this life, you know, experience hardship. It's funny, I always. I tell my kids all the time that, you know, like a lot of kids are crappy. They're. I won't swear, but they're kind of sh I ts. And my kids look at me and they're like, mom, you're not supposed to say that. And I'm like, well, it's true. Like, a lot of people aren't nice, A lot of people are jerks. A lot of, you know, I think I'm kind of dark. And I believe in acknowledging the less kind aspects of our nature in this world and teaching my kids also to cope with it. [00:03:39] Speaker B: There were a bunch of, you know, the human condition is pretty flawed, isn't it? And we have to interact with ourselves and other flawed people all of the time. [00:03:50] Speaker C: So that's what the philosophers wrote. [00:03:52] Speaker B: And actually, when, when you look at your past, I mean, you know, the way the certain sort of maybe career choices that might lead us into more anxious sort of situations. Politics, by its nature, you were involved at the highest level. And you know, there's a sense like, are you being paranoid? Everybody can't sort of hate you and want you to screw up. But essentially in politics, it's a lot like that. So was that a really bad choice for you? [00:04:25] Speaker C: That's so funny, John. Yeah, it really is. But you know, when you're in politics, something really interesting happens, which is that the candidate becomes this demigod figure, even if the candidate is ridiculous at times, which they all are, because they're human. And so it's a bunch of people coalescing around. Usually it's a man, unfortunately, but around a man who is a symbol and who offers promise and excitement. And you know, it's a lot like when you join a company and there's a famous founder, right? I mean, so, so part of it is that you feel that you want to protect. You're part of a tribe. It becomes a little bit like that and you want to protect your candidate, you know, and so that is really exhilarating as well. You really get this sense that you're in it for the cause and for the candidate. And so you really develop an us versus them mentality. [00:05:33] Speaker B: And it's interesting I say that because I actually stood for local elections myself in Ireland. And so I was elected luckily enough for 15 years, but I actually had to. I. I left politics simply because I didn't like what I was becoming. Because all of the negativity, it just wasn't where I wanted to be and at that sense. And there was a lot of anxiety when you're debating and you know, You've got to think very fast on your feet because everybody's kind of having a go at your ideas, and in some cases they're having to go as you do, you know. So I was just really interested that somebody who's become an expert in anxiety would have spent so much time in politics. It's not a particularly nice place. [00:06:19] Speaker C: It's not. But I think it's also a great place to put your anxiety. I mean, if you're anxious, it gives you endless opportunities. And, you know, anxious people are really good in anxious situations. I'm curious, when you were. When you were in elected office, are you introverted or extroverted? [00:06:33] Speaker B: Mostly, you know, funnily enough, if. If you were to ask other people, they'd say, I'm very extroverted. But I actually personally think there's an introverted part to me, which, privately, I'm introverted. You know, publicly I'm more extroverted, but equally, you know, I do enjoy getting up front of an audience and, you know, doing a speech. I actually enjoy that. That gives me energy. So it seems. Alison, my wife, says I'm a contradiction. So that's. [00:07:00] Speaker C: I'm the same. [00:07:01] Speaker B: Truth of it. [00:07:03] Speaker C: Oh, there's a lot of us introverts. There's. I call us. I call us hams. Ham introverts. Like, we love the spotlight, we love being on stage, but, you know, we also need a lot of alone time and. [00:07:13] Speaker B: Yeah, oh, absolutely. For the energy piece. I mean, like, I. I suppose the broader thing that I'm kind of trying to get my head around is, you know, the broader discussion around mental health and the like is, are we becoming a more anxious society, or is it that we're simply more comfortable talking about it now and people are using the language more? So therefore everybody's sort of saying, okay, it's not that we're becoming more anxious, it's that we're talking about it more. Which. Where would you lie on that? [00:07:45] Speaker C: Oh, this is such a difficult question. I. I don't. There's no data, right? I mean, that's the. Even the data is probably flawed because they didn't ask these. Right. To your point, they didn't ask these questions. You know, I can't imagine that we are more anxious than we were when our physical beings were literally at risk every day or when mothers, you know, expected their children to not make it past five years old or during war and the blitz in London. And, you know, so I can't imagine we're more anxious. You know, the. The Famous psychologist Rollo May wrote in the 60s that, you know, we're sort of in a. We're sort of in a fix because we still have the same drive to protect ourselves against predators who might jump out and eat us. But the predators have become, for many of us, our boss. People in our life, people at work, a meeting we have, a challenge we have with the fact that we don't feel like we're successful enough. Does our partner still love us? Right. So. So I. I think for a lot of us who live fortunately lives where our. Our physical being is not under threat every day we still have the same impulse towards anxiety, but we put it into places that perhaps even don't merit that level of emotion. And that's. That's the disconnect. [00:09:16] Speaker B: So in the past, I think it's funny, you know, in the old days, people used to die of old age, whereas now people always die of something. They don't wrap it up as old age anymore. So I'm just wondering, in the old days, were people warriors? Whereas now we have mental health issues and we have anxiety and the like. So is the language changing? And maybe we just still have the human condition and it's natural. [00:09:45] Speaker C: I mean, when you look back through history and there's a lot of scholarship around this, of course, mental illness was present always. I. I always look to Abraham Lincoln as an example, right? I mean, Abraham Lincoln now would have a million mental illness diagnoses, right? He was clinically depressed, he was often anxious, he was suicidal often. And what's interesting about Lincoln is that his melancholy, what he called the hypo, that's what he called his depression, was well known. And he would talk about it, and people around him all knew about it, and so they would help protect him. And I talk about this in my book. One of my favorite historians is Nancy Cain at Harvard Business School, and I really recommend her work. And she's a Lincoln scholar, and she studies leaders in crisis. And she looks at anxiety and depression and abject fear and dread and all of these difficult emotions and how they've popped up in history's greatest leaders. And of course they did. And so the language is different, but humans are humans, right? And our lizard brains still have all these emotions, even though our lives are so different than what our bodies were designed for. So I think that the language has changed, but ironically, I worry that we maybe even talk about how we feel less, certainly, than Lincoln did when we're. When we're in positions of power. [00:11:21] Speaker B: So a lot of people would Be coming to listen to this, because what we're seeing in, in workplaces, the data coming through, is that there are higher levels of anxiety and people are, you know, struggling to. To. To sleep, and they're not very optimistic about the future. They're kind. Um, so I'm just. I'm just wondering maybe just from a definition point of view, that that kind of piece between stress versus anxiety versus depression and the like, is that a continuum or are they completely separate things? [00:11:50] Speaker C: Stress and fear actually are different from anxiety, even though they might feel the same in your body, right? You might get that rush and that heart rate, and your muscles might clench and you might feel that drive of energy. Stress and fear are technically external, right? So stress is when my boss comes up to me and he throws a sheaf of papers on my desk and says, have those marked up by five. He has placed an external stressor. Now, I probably feel anxiety as a reaction to the stressor that he's placed on me because I think, oh, my God, I can't do this. There goes my afternoon. I'm not going to do a good job, blah, blah, blah. Why does my boss hate me? And fear is similar, right? Where I have something that is a threat to my being. You know, maybe I always use the example if I'm driving and I just pump on the brakes because a car has cut me off, that I feel fear. Anxiety would be that maybe I worry this is going to happen every time I get in the car, and then next time I'm going to die. Right? So that's anxiety. So I think it's important to remember that because we use stress and anxiety interchangeably. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah, we do. Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:59] Speaker C: But they're not quite. And theoretically, we have a little more control over stress and, and anxiety, frankly. And then, you know, anxiety itself, like all of mental health exists on. I like to think of it as a spectrum, right? So anxiety is a natural emotion. We all feel it, we need it. It keeps us alive. It's ancient. And so that's why all of us feel anxiety, right? When we. We have a big, big event that we care about or when we're worried about something, right? And sometimes we need anxiety, right? What neuroscientists call good anxiety. That's really motivating. So, you know, I might be a little anxious before coming on this podcast because I want to perform for you and I want to do a good job. So I'm anxious, but it gives me energy. What I would think of as the chronic anxiety that a lot of us are reporting at work, right? It's just this sense that we carry with us that things are not okay, that the future is not going to be good, that bad things are around the corner. We just sort of have the gnawing, you know, worry or the swirl in our heads. Maybe we're not sleeping so well. And then at the bottom end of the spectrum is when anxiety becomes an illness, right? It's a disorder, and that is when the anxiety is getting in the way of your functioning, of your life, right? And so maybe you are developing so much anxiety that you can't clear your head for a minute and you're having a hard time getting your work done, or you've developed a phobia, right? Or you're having panic, panic attacks. And that is when, you know, I would really recommend, like, get help, get professional help, because there are great treatments for this because it's super, super common. Anxiety is the most common mental illness in the world. And so it really exists on a spectrum. And so I would just ask listeners to sort of think about how often do I feel that sense of anxiety, right? Am I feeling it every day? Is there a pattern? Am I not sleeping most of the time? Am I waking up with a swirl of thoughts and worries in my head? Are there things that I'm avoiding? I mean, that's a. That's a really good cue that anxiety is. Is getting to be a problem when you sort of start avoiding things that you used to jump into. And so really, I would. I would encourage you, if you're listening, you're thinking, gosh, you know, I'm really anxious more of the time than I'm not to think about getting some help and taking it seriously. [00:15:38] Speaker B: You. You were very honest in this book. Because during the writing of the book, you actually really hit a low point yourself, didn't you? [00:15:47] Speaker C: I did. I had. I mean, so I had a really bad depression, and I was extremely anxious. I was so anxious, I really couldn't settle for a minute. I. I have bipolar 2 disorder, which means I sort of go up and down. But it's weird. Like, people think that bipolar means, like, you know, you're sort of manic and up all night for a couple months, and then you crash, and then it happens again. And for most of us, that's not what it's like. And certainly if you have bipolar two, which is sort of the less severe kind. So I've had three major depressions in my life, like, where I, you know, really needed professional help, could not function, could not work and this was the third. And, you know, it's funny, I got Covid right before it, which I think was a factor. [00:16:33] Speaker B: Okay, okay. [00:16:35] Speaker C: And I was just going through an incredible low point in my life and my business. I had sold my business of many years, and it was so horrible. It was so horrible. And I worried about what my children thought. And, you know, anyone who's been through a deep, deep depression knows the feeling of, oh, my gosh, it's come back. Is this how my life's going to be from now on? You know, you have that feeling of, I can't believe I'm back here, and you're just so hopeless. And it's. Life just feels impossible. And I'm so lucky because I live in Boston, Massachusetts. I have access to some of the best healthcare in the world. I tried about six different new drugs. I tried transcranial magnetic stimulation, which. Which is a. I call it brain zapping, where they literally send electrodes into your brain. And I got better, but it was rough. So as much as I'm a spokesperson for embracing your mental health and living your best life, it's not like, I'm done. [00:17:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's not a case of, like, I've done the course. I'm cured. It's as in it's something that's always there in the back, potentially. Are you scared that it's could come back again, or do you feel you have enough tools in the toolbox to deal with it when you spot the signs? [00:18:05] Speaker C: I'm sure it'll come back again. I'm sure it will. And that's what's really hard about living with mental illness. On my podcast, I talk to a lot of people who have a diagnosed mental illness, like, I do, and there is a little bit of a sense of carpe diem, you know, and so it's like, when you feel good, you really want to max things out. I think that's why the hypomania that comes with bipolar. And even when you're very. You're an anxious person, you're very good at manifesting energy. It's anxious energy, but you can really manifest energy. And it's sort of the sense that you want to make hay while the sun shines because you don't know what darkness might be around the corner. [00:18:55] Speaker B: I. You know, the. The world. [00:18:57] Speaker C: Or you might get burnt out. [00:18:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The World Health Organization obviously has that brilliant video where it's the. The dog and this dog following you around. And I. I think it's really powerful in terms of the separation between the two things, you know, and it helps you think about it differently, but it is. I mean, thankfully, I've never suffered from that level of depression. But just for people, again, to understand when is that moment between anxiety and then suddenly that becoming depression, where now I need to think about medical consultation, but just that line for people, just so that they understand the difference between the two. [00:19:42] Speaker C: So anxiety and depression are different, but as my friend John Moe says, they go together like hollow notes. They don't have great solo careers. So. So anxiety is a feeling that. It's almost an anticipation. See, look, I can't talk. An anticipation of bad things. Intense feeling of worry or fear or a memory of something bad that did happen that you feel is going. And again, it's very much a physical sensation of sort of almost jumpiness, but you can also feel really distracted and disconnected. But it's different. It is a persistent feeling of worry and dread. Depression is also a persistent feeling of worry or dread, but it is accompanied by. By a total loss, usually of energy, of investment, of caring, of hope. There is no joy or passion in depression. It is absolutely the feeling that someone is sucking the blood out of you. And so often when we're anxious, we become depressed because we are so emotionally exhausted. We are so constantly taxing ourselves, but not always. And when we're depressed, we're often anxious because life is so horrible and hard, and we think, oh, my God, I can't live this way. I'm so worried. So it's complicated. And I would tell listeners, and again, I'm not a doctor, but if you are showing up at work and absolutely unable to concentrate, if you feel no energy, if you feel no passion, if you feel that there is nothing worth getting excited or happy for, if you ever feel like life isn't worth living, if you wake up in the morning and you just feel like it's so impossible to even brush your teeth, please get help. [00:22:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, one person. I think it was just a phrase they used on. On your Anxious Achiever podcast, and it was a floating sense of dread. I. I just thought, wow, it's a. It's a very, very powerful way to put it, but it's just so tough for people who have that and they're kind of trying to get on with life while having to deal with that. That's. That's, like, really tough. [00:22:29] Speaker C: There's. I just want to say two things. There's. There's what doctors call trait anxiety and state anxiety. And so some of us might Go through a really terrible time, something horrific might happen. Right? And so we feel that total feeling of dread. But it's situational, right? It's based on an event. And, you know, we work through it. We get help, we get therapy. Some of us are born that way, and that's how we're wired. Or because of experiences in our childhood, we feel that way on a regular basis. And that's called state anxiety. And I just say that because if you have not been an anxious person, but you are feeling this way, have faith, because you can work through this. Yeah, I promise. [00:23:16] Speaker B: It's really interesting. I mean, you know, obviously I can't remember who actually said it, but I know there's a book written about it. But this whole idea of, like, you know, your past and the effect it. Your present. And I. I know in this part of the world, sometimes we do use this phrase, like, what's wrong with you? Whereas, you know, changing that to what happened to you is a really. It's subtle, but really powerful, you know. [00:23:43] Speaker C: You know, Susan Schmidt Winchester wrote a great book called Healing at Work, and she. She has this phrase called Adult Survivors of a Damaged Past. Asdp. And. And her point that I love is that we've all been through stuff. We've all been through trauma, even if we traditionally have not experienced what are called ACEs, adverse childhood events, which is a questionnaire that you can actually go take. And it measures markers of childhood trauma that have been statistically proven to have an effect on your life as you grow up. That we've all been through hurts, and we bring that to our work. We bring our baggage every day. Sometimes I do think of us as, like, trailing our suitcases to the office, and we pretend like they're not there, but they're there. And so, you know, this may sound depressing to people, but I actually think it's really joyful because when we can think of everyone with our various luxury luggage, almost like you're at left luggage at the train station. You know, we can understand that we're not alone, that we all have stuff and that we can acknowledge it. We don't have to share it all, but we can each individually do work and be open and then hopefully like, not act it out reflexively or unconsciously like we tend to, because that's what happens. Right? Like, therapists love to say, wherever you go, there you are. And. And that's certain true with our baggage at work. [00:25:25] Speaker B: I'm interested because the situational piece. Then let's go to work. Okay. Obviously that's that's where we spend most time is talking to people about work and the effect it can have on them. I mean, you say most work is bad for your mental health. You're stretched too thin. You don't have the resources. You don't have boundaries. People are jerks. We work in a patriarchal, biased, unjust system. Wow. [00:25:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:57] Speaker B: You've had some bad experiences, have you? [00:26:00] Speaker C: I don't know why everyone's shocked when I say that. I mean, I feel like I'm like, duh. You know, I just. Every day I talk to people who are telling me horrible stories about how their organizations have treated them. I mean, maybe it's because I do what I do. I don't know about you, John, but like, I. People seek me out to tell me. They reach out to me over LinkedIn or whatever, and they're like, my company laid me off after 18 years of great service and they cut off my email an hour later. [00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:31] Speaker C: And escorted me out of the building. Like, you know, I'm literally hearing stories like this. And of course the, the data is there and we know that systems are toxic. And so I just sort of, again, I'm like, let's just accept it, like, let's not pretend certainly that capitalist corporate structures are healthy for people. Why would we pretend that? [00:26:53] Speaker B: Well, honestly, I used to training in the States and I remember having a bunch of leaders of an organization for a few days in Washington D.C. and about six months later, I had one of them in Buffalo, I think it was. And I said to him, so did you learn anything from the course? And he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great. And I said, give me an example of what you implemented. And he actually said, well, we used to fire people on the day, but now we give them three days notice. Like from a European perspective, like, we have lots of laws around this. I couldn't believe it. Like, you would be so anxious in that environment. Your boss has all the power. [00:27:37] Speaker C: So it's interesting because I have a lot of family and friends in the UK who work for multinational corporations, and I see the difference between the US and Europe, and it's much more humane. I feel like I should move to Europe. But, you know, here's the thing. Even if we work in a system that isn't great, our teams can be amazing. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:04] Speaker C: Everyone says you join a company, but you leave a boss. Right. And so we all know that the real magic happens and why people stay at a job is because of the people they're with every day. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:17] Speaker C: And that's where I do feel change. And you know, this, like, that's where I like to focus. I don't like to focus too much on the individual because, you know, it's very easy for companies to give me a license to a telehealth. Telehealth and say, go fix yourself. That's not good enough. [00:28:36] Speaker B: No. [00:28:37] Speaker C: And you know the corporate structure at Amazon. Well, I'm not going to have a lot of work changing that, but. Oops, sorry. But the team, the team can change. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, for, for me, what we see is that there's a lot of pathogens in workplaces, but if they're balanced with, we're fans of Aaron Antonovsky's work and Salute of Genesis, which just, you know, the whole area of having a deep sense of coherence and the like, but trying to increase the amount of positives and salutogenic effects in the workplace and obviously people and the support you get from people around you is a perfect way of doing that. Increasing resources in that regard. So that's how you survive those stressor rich environments, as you say. But I'm interested too, because obviously the manager, and you said managers have a huge impact on the people around them. So if you have a very anxious manager, is that bad news? [00:29:41] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, that's interesting. Right? And speaking as someone who is an anxious manager, it doesn't have to be, you know, I mean, again, it all depends on self awareness, right? What, what is one of the most desired leadership qualities? It's self awareness. And so you can be an extremely anxious person. You can be perfectionistic, you can be a control freak. That's different. If you're in touch with it and you can say to your team, listen, I'm a control freak. I get very, very anxious when this set of conditions happen. And I might, I might start acting like this. You might see me in your inbox a little bit more. I might bother you. You can tell me. Okay, that's super different than an anxious leader who is not in touch with it and who just acts it out. And we all know that leader, you know, I mean, people are people. If you're anxious, you might be anxious and you might be great at your job because you're very attuned and you're very driven and you're very, very attentive to details and fired up and all that good stuff. So it's really about your level of self awareness and how you treat the people around you. [00:30:57] Speaker B: It's funny, I was dealing with one company recently and to me, how you bonus your managers and what you're looking from them is pretty important. They've actually decided that 50% of the bonus that the manager gets relates to the health and well being of their team, which I think is so progressive, isn't it? So when that manager says, how are you? He really actually cares about the answer because it finds its way into his. [00:31:26] Speaker C: How do they measure that survey? [00:31:29] Speaker B: Yeah, constant basis. Yeah, yeah. So they have the trend data and they know exactly how the team are. So they just say that it's so important that the team are healthy and well and that's a reflection of the manager. So I love that, I love that. [00:31:44] Speaker C: But who asked the manager, how are you? [00:31:46] Speaker B: Oh, well, there you go. There's obviously layers, aren't there? But you're right. I mean, oftentimes they can be the squeeze middle and we see that with the data in organizations all over the place. And they're also, you know, their job has changed fundamentally. So it's really hard because they're losing a lot of their power. They used to have power with communication and information, whereas now the leaders of organizations, through Slack and all that, are directly communicating with people and then the roles are changing and now the people aren't in front of them anymore. They've lost the control there. People are working remotely. So it's a hard gig. But I'm just interested in, obviously your focus now is on those leaders and those really high achievers and the like. So how do you think leadership has changed in the post pandemic world? And actually, I'll add to that. Is it actually, you know, nearly essential to be anxious if you're a leader because you're dealing with so much uncertainty? [00:32:46] Speaker C: Technically, yes. I mean, you're paid to be anxious, right. If part of anxiety is anticipating, you know, it's like chess, right. All the different scenarios, if I win, if I lose, if there's a global pandemic, if interest rates go up 5%. So. Absolutely right. Your job as a leader is to scenario plan. And that's where anxiety can be incredibly helpful. You know, part of what you learn when you have chronic anxiety is you learn to manage it and give it a job. And so, you know, I've worked with lots of leaders who have that 3am swirl in their heads and rather than sort of sitting and stewing and ruminating, get up, externalize the anxiety, put it on a piece of paper, make it a plan and really try to give, I always say, give your anxiety a job. Yeah. And so it's not. It's not bad to be anxious when you're a leader. It can be emotionally exhausting if you don't take care of yourself. But it's not. I don't like to call it bad or good. Anxiety is not bad or good. It is. I think the job of leadership has changed so much. I don't think that when I think of leader, though. I don't think of the person with the fancy title, though. I think of people in an organization who cultivate influence and do great work. Right. And that can be all across an organization. But it's definitely true that in a world where factors feel out of our control, where we can't see people, where things are so dispersed, we have to become better communicators. And I think that is something actually, that makes a lot of leaders anxious. And we have to learn how to communicate very, very differently. And that is something that we need to train our leaders to do because, you know, when there's a gap in communication, when there's a vacuum, when people don't know what's going on, anxiety whooshes in to fill that vacuum. And so good leaders know how to not let that vacuum happen or to manage it. [00:35:06] Speaker B: And in terms of leaders been authentic and actually opening up about their own struggles. Is it. Yeah, because it was in. In the book, you mentioned Amy Cuddy's work in terms of this. And I think it's an interesting sort of nuance. It's not about sort of just letting it all flow out and sort of say, this is it, I'm a mess. It's actually this balance between sort of been slightly in control but also been vulnerable at the same time. So that, that kind of strength piece. Could you talk into that a little bit? [00:35:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Competence and strength or warmth and competence. When you're, when you're a leader, right. You have to create, to use a therapy term, you have to create a holding environment. Right. You have to be able to create a coherence for your team. And what's really hard right now is that if you said to your team, I know exactly what's going to happen, everything's going to be fine. The people above you have all the answers. Don't worry. They wouldn't believe you. They would know you were lying. So you have to get a little bit more adept, and I think we learned this in the pandemic in real time at acknowledging the uncertainty, the vulnerability inherent in where we live right now. But keeping people feeling like you will guide and protect them to the best of your ability. And so it's a little bit of vulnerability in that. I don't have a crystal ball. I don't have. I cannot promise you that we won't get laid off. I cannot promise you that. But here's what I know. Here's what we're going to do. And I'm with you. And so I think that that is, again, that's really, really challenging because of course, we're people too, and leaders, we get anxious. So many senior leaders are getting complete. They're the ones getting laid off. Right. And so how do you manage your own anxiety while showing up for your team with strength? It's a lot like being a parent when you're, as a parent, terrified. But you know that you can't let your kids into everything. But. But you do want to share that things aren't maybe 100%. Okay. [00:37:38] Speaker B: Chip Connelly, I think when you were interviewing him, he was talking about, like, that these CEOs nearly need to go away to their own space so they can talk to each other about all the struggles they're actually having, which I think is kind of fascinating. And so I suppose moving into that space, then of sort of saying the problem is un. Unmanaged anxiety, where you're letting it just run ruin on your life, and it's having a debilitating effect. So then how do you make that shift into actually starting to actively manage your anxiety? [00:38:08] Speaker C: I think you should go to therapy personally or get, you know, help. You know, some people use coaching, some people reach out to their spiritual community, their faith community, you know, and this is like, very chic in leadership, right? I mean, it's very, very, very, very aspirational, I think, for leaders who have access to resources to get help in being reflective and looking into themselves and their motivations and all that. And I actually think that's great. I think that's amazing because when you have access to how you have been trained to react to anxious situations, that's when you can begin to change it. Right. You know, one of the things that I think is really remarkable and worth remembering is that when it comes to what makes us anxious, we're never going to be able to control the triggers. [00:39:00] Speaker B: Right? [00:39:01] Speaker C: Because we can't control the world, we can't control other people. What we can learn to manage is how we react. And when you know that, it is an incredibly powerful thing. It's so powerful. [00:39:19] Speaker B: Sorry, go ahead. [00:39:20] Speaker C: No, you go, you go. [00:39:21] Speaker B: No, I was just gonna say, like, one of the things, like, I. I would have Hated flying for, for many years. Like ridiculous. Like I, I'd need a double gin and tonic before I could step on a plane. And I never thought I'd be able to get over that. But I've actually thought of that and I've actually managed to pass it on to other people who weren't scared of flying, like my, my wife and her mother. But also then the other, the other fear I, I struggle with hugely is elevators. I can't use them and I feel so stupid when I'm in a situation. Like I remember being in New York and there was a major party on with everybody who in a particular business community. But it was on the 37th floor and I would have walked, but I wasn't allowed to walk for security reasons. So I had to walk away from that event which seemedly was great, but that was, that was really horrible. But I was trying to hope this moment would come where the fear would reduce in me. But I can't remember who said it, but they said it's not about reducing the fear, it's about increasing the courage. And to me that was really sort of important. And it did make me step into more elevators even though I hate it, just being claustrophobic, you know. [00:40:44] Speaker C: Well, totally. I, I, I'm actually finally able to fly completely, mostly unmedicated. You know, the thing is there's cognitive behavioral therapy for that kind of phobia. There's actually, I'm just gonna say there's a fabulous book called Panic Free by Captain Tom Bunn, B U N N and he's an airline pilot who has become a therapist and he has an incredible panic reduction. It's using your vagal nerve. And it, it has helped me be able to fly and be in. My thing is, is subways underground. I was just in London and I took the tube with my daughter everywhere. And I was so proud of myself. So, so I would say to you, challenge you like go do a round of cbt, learn these techniques. Because again, like this is evidence based stuff. We all have our things. I'll never forget I was in a really senior, this is back when I was a political consultant. I was working on a gubernatorial race and I was in a meeting of big New York executives who were supporting a candidate and they were all joking about how much Ambien they took every night to sleep. And I looked, I looked around the room and I'm like, these guys are like out of their minds with anxiety. And what they're really saying is like I'm so anxious, I Have to take two Ambien every night to sleep. And they're joking about it, right? And I'm like, what is, like, what is this saying? You know, I'm just sitting here. So we all have our stuff. [00:42:26] Speaker B: And for most, for a lot of people, it's alcohol, isn't it? That, that's how they manage their anxiety. They just, you know, most of us, really long term debilitating effects. [00:42:37] Speaker C: And food, Food. And alcohol. [00:42:38] Speaker B: And food, too. Okay, okay, okay. So the, the. I love that final question you kind of ask in the book. How can you get out when you are hurting and everything feels hopeless and scary? How can you take one step towards freedom and mental health and joy when you feel locked in and overwhelmed? Oh, when you put it that way, it's kind of scary. And the whole book kind of brilliantly ends with this idea of, you know, is your anxiety robbing your joy in life? And how do you reclaim that joy? So without giving the whole book away. [00:43:19] Speaker C: How do you reclaim that joy? Yeah, you get help. You take yourself seriously. You learn skills. I always say the answers are really boring. They're boring. It's, it's like, again, like, like Captain Tom says, it's learning skills. It's practicing, you know, like every time. I have a friend who lives in New York City and she developed claustrophobia during the pandemic. And, and she, she, she, like, literally, she's like, I felt like I had to go to school, I had to practice, I had to learn these skills. Like, I have to exercise, I have to, to sleep, I have to journal. I have to like, it's not interesting or fun. It's a discipline, it's an exploration. It's learning, and that's what makes the difference. And for me, a life without joy is a life without living. Like, I don't mind if life is hard. I acknowledge that I have mental illness and I'm just going to have some really hard times. But if I can never even find joy in watching my daughter or, you know, going out in my garden or watching something really funny on Netflix, what's the point? And so I have made cultivating joy, even if it's tiny little increments of joy, something that I actually know how to do. [00:44:44] Speaker B: And so for the leader, finally, just if you could kind of get all these leaders who are there and they have a huge opportunity to change the dynamic and to change the environments, and we're talking more and more about psychologically safe environments, what would you kind of say to them? If you could give Them kind of a couple of things to kind of do that just make a big, big difference. What would it be? [00:45:10] Speaker C: I would tell them to get excited and get curious. What makes you tick? What makes you feel joyful? What makes you feel confident? What makes you feel anxious? Right. I would ask them to sort of play detective of their own self, of their own motivation, and to not be scared of the answers. To really look at this as a chance to, like, what's a. What's a real leadership term to 10x their performance? Right. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Don't go there. [00:45:45] Speaker C: I know it's disgusting, but. But really, I think that we totally need to reframe looking into our past, our mental health, what triggers us as a true opportunity to grow and learn and change and be better, rather than something that we drink away or we Ambien away or we just act out with really controlling and micromanaging and crummy behavior because it is truly transformational. Right. And also to acknowledge, like, how amazing would it be to step into a world that is scary and awful and hard and react differently. [00:46:37] Speaker B: Well, hopefully those leaders will do just that because they have such. Such an opportunity. And. And, you know, I think the. The key that I've learned anyway, from everything I've read that you've written and everything I've listened to in terms of your brilliant podcast, is that the. The trick is just to recognize where you are in terms of that spectrum that you talk about and to then match that with an understanding so that you can actually start to actively manage the anxiety that you face. And if it is at the. The medical end that you get treatment, that's really important. But I think there are techniques, and you've very clearly in the. The book, gone through some of those, and they do work. They do work. So I'm. I'm living proof that you can actually get over this. And I am going to beat that elevator one in my claustrophobia, because the big thing for me is the. My. My two daughters, not my son, funnily enough, but my two daughters are actually also now nervous of elevators. And I don't want to pass that on to them, you know, so I want to show them we can beat it together. [00:47:47] Speaker C: Exactly. And, you know, I would just leave people with this. You know, if you're wondering, where am I on that spectrum? Right. I know that I feel anxious. Start paying attention, and I use your body as the tool. Start paying attention to how your body feels throughout the day. Think about where in your body you tend to get tense. Think about how your stomach feels. Think about how your appetite is. Think about your sleep and actually think about meetings that you might feel extra nervous before. Think about, is there a person whose name pops up in your email inbox who gives you. We all have that. Gives you that dread, that jolt. Start tuning in because you're going to see patterns and you're going to start realizing, wow, this makes. This makes me anxious. This is a clue. [00:48:36] Speaker B: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. The patterns are key. And the other thing, actually, you said it. And when you're going through this before in your podcast, the jaw. Your jaw. Actually, for some reason that just hit it with me and I was going, wow. Yeah, that's right. So listen, I really appreciate you taking the time out to, to chat today and your work is brilliant. I love it. And your podcast is fantastic. So I'd recommend everybody to tune into the Anxious Achiever and, and to read the book. Keep up the brilliant work. [00:49:06] Speaker C: Oh, thanks, John. You too. [00:49:08] Speaker B: Thank you so much. All right, take care. [00:49:11] Speaker C: Be well. [00:49:12] Speaker B: So there you have it. [00:49:13] Speaker A: As Maura says, anxiety itself is good data and it can push us to check in with ourselves and change things that maybe are quite working for us and hopefully bring extra drive and energy to our lives. It's about using our anxiety better. I really hope you enjoyed our conversation and do tune in to Maura's podcast, the Anxious Achiever. Now, if you have any ideas on topics you'd love us to feature next, please do get in touch. You can follow and connect with me on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, work healthy.