Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello, I'm John Ryan and this is the Work Healthy podcast. Today we've got a real treat as we head to the island of Singapore to learn how they do things very differently. Our guide on our journey is the wonderful Pek Kem Lo, who is the Chief HR Officer for Singapore's Public Services division. In a fascinating interview, she talks, among other things, about an app that if you do 10,000 steps each day for three weeks, you get paid by the government.
How they also have 480 coaches in the public sector, an initiative where you get $1500 to invest in your own education and development.
We talk about four day work weeks, sin tax, mini retirements, working from at home, productive longevity and why they're outlawing vapes. I started the interview by asking how Singapore has actually increased its life expectancy from 65 years to 84.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: I think several things.
One is very much of because Singapore is quite small and we don't really have a lot of natural resources.
So what is going for Singapore is really you have a very stable government and because it's small enough that we are able to reach out to most of the citizens and being able to reach out to the population and to have really something which not many countries have, we have very strong tripartism.
So the government, the employers as well as the workers union come together into a tripartite relationship.
So we are working as one in unison towards what does it take for Singapore to succeed and to punch above our weight.
So when it comes to any crisis, for that matter, whether it's Covid or it's, you know, any natural disaster or economic crisis for that matter, if you are managing a smaller country who actually the union, the workers, the employers, the government are all working towards the betterment of the economy as well as the country, we can then speak the same language.
There will be positive tension.
But you are in a position where you can have, because you have a stable government to plan very long term.
So what are some of the longer term strategies which may require you to take, I would say, to make some small sacrifices for the longer term.
So I think the ability to essentially do a strategic workforce plan for the country that looks at 30, 40 years ahead and then to bite the bullet and say, this is the time where I have to invest in, say, skills, invest in what are the skill sets that are necessary. It may mean that I have to restructure my workforce. It may mean that I have to come up with quite tough policy of, you know, everybody take a pay cut through a certain way of how we deduct our, for example, Central Provident fund.
So the Central Provident fund works in such a way where the employer contributes a certain portion and then this is, and then the employees contribute a certain portion. And this is actually at the national level saving to make sure that there is income security or financial security as people work towards retirement.
So when you have long term strategy and you can break it down to shorter term, what are some of the things that we need to put in place to get ourselves ready for the future?
And with the tripartism, how we can actually, at a tripartite level, all three parties can basically say that, well, we want to invest in certain sectors of the economy.
We're going to set up this task force and These are the 26 sectors that we want to work on. And we call this the industry transformation map.
So there is actually a blueprint to say that for Singapore to continue to succeed and also because of a low total fertility rate, our low total fertility rate, we actually have to depend on foreign talent to come in.
But we cannot afford to keep opening the tab. So there are some mechanisms to manage the balance.
But in many ways when we look at how do we maximize on our very precious resource in our workforce, we say that we will invest in education, we will invest in skills future.
What are some of the skills that are required to make sure that our workforce are ready for the future?
So there is an entire statutory board set up called Skills Future Singapore.
Single mindedly looking at what are the economies that are going to be important for the country.
The labor intensive work is not for us because we don't even have enough people.
We have a very small plot of land.
Where are the value added work where precious human resource can contribute to, to get your maximum mileage?
And what are the skills or what are the infrastructure that we need to put in place? Because one workforce is one segment, another segment is actually the workplace. Yeah.
What are the infrastructures that you need to put in place to facilitate that kind of transformation?
So our main investments are really in making sure that invest in education, we invest in skills, we invest in capabilities development, we invest in thinking of what is needed for the future and we invest in working on the relationship between the tripartite partners so that it becomes a win, win, win.
[00:06:38] Speaker C: Okay, so you really brought those three pieces together and have them working on it. Clearly. It's one of the things I noticed when I visited Asia is that they people in Asia seem to have that ability to do much more long term thinking and that really serves Them. Well, I mean, it is intriguing when you see the lifespan, the healthy living piece, because obviously you can keep people alive nearly forever nowadays. But it's, it's the being alive and been vital and been able to do everything that you want to do. That health span concept, I mean, moving that from 63, you know, our 65 to 83.5, that was a tremendous achievement. And so Singapore now is, if you know, it's one of the places in the world that you live longest. So did the government do sort of, you know, how do they make the population sort of fitter, healthier, better?
[00:07:37] Speaker B: Yes. So. So John, you're absolutely right.
Given a choice, everybody wants to eat their junk food and all that.
So.
So as a country, we are looking at, you know, people. We need people to live longer. Not only live longer, but work longer. Yeah. Okay.
So if I need my population to have longer longevity, we also need to work on, you know, I don't want you to work longer. And then by the time you retire, you are not only not productive, but you are of ill health. And it is not really product being productive, not only to the economy, but even to the society at large. Yeah. So.
So as we look at, you know, as we ready people for the skills for the future, okay. We also look at how do you pace yourself?
So I think Singapore is about the only country in the world where our former Prime Minister would tell people at a national level we have a fight against diabetes.
Okay. Because a lot of people, people in Singapore, be it Malays, Indians or Chinese and all that rice is quite a staple food.
Rice is quite heavy in carbohydrates.
[00:09:02] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: So when we say let's have a national healthy goal, we want to have a war against diabetes because those create a lot of health issues for when you're older. Right.
So the Prime Minister will tell everybody, please eat less rice, eat healthier food.
[00:09:26] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Drug abuse is a serious offense in Singapore.
[00:09:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:32] Speaker B: Okay. And we impose heavy taxes on what we call syntax, on cigarettes, on alcohol.
So all the policies in place work towards getting you to have a healthier lifestyle. We even give you an app on your phone called Healthy SG Singapore, where if you exercise and you walk 10,000 steps a day and then you do that for three weeks, they will give you like a $20 voucher.
Yeah. So it's incentive.
[00:10:13] Speaker C: It's great.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's, it's really incentivize you to want to keep yourself healthy so that you can have a long healthy life.
So, so we don't wait until you are old before we tell you, oh, you shouldn't have taken so much sugar and all that. So we get people to pays it out and we actively promote healthier living.
Even though Singapore has a very small footprint. We actually have a lot of parks, a lot of park connectors that you can ride from one place to another or you can run from one place to another.
And those are all pleasant initiatives that we encourage people to live healthy, eat healthy, have strong social relationships so that by the time you retire, you are well paced for your next phase of life. Because if we are expecting people, you know, my children and my grandchildren, if I get any in the future, they are very likely to go sell to celebrate their 100th birthday.
[00:11:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, please, please.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: My mom is 93, she lives with me and she walks up and down the stairs, she eats anything she likes.
So that's the goal. It's not just to extend your lifespan, but to make sure that you achieve productive longevity. Yeah.
[00:11:39] Speaker C: And it seems to be just a huge trend across the world now, this desire to live longer and healthier.
And it's interesting where you see the richest people are investing huge money in different ways to investigate how am I going to do this? And I just hope it's not the richest who live longest. But it's, you know, a broad population like Singapore have managed to do. You move the dial and the whole population. I love that idea of, you know, rewarding people for, for doing 10, 5k or 10k, that's brilliant. I was in Dubai last week and one of the things there, if you, the population, if you want to be fit, it's very difficult to go out for a run when it's 46 degrees.
So what they've introduced is the Dubai Marathon, they call it, where in the morning time from 7 o' clock until 10 o' clock in all of the shopping malls, you can actually go for a 5k run and you're doing it in beautiful air conditioning. And it was just wonderful to see all of these shopping centers full of people getting fit.
I thought it was brilliant, you know, so that, that's where you see governments really come behind, sort of helping with infrastructure to make it easier for people to be fit. And I'm interested too. So Singapore, you know, many parts of the world obviously struggle with trying to manage migration and immigration and the like. How has Singapore managed that whole process?
Is this tripartite relationship important again?
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Well, apart from just the tripartite relationship, so we created Singapore to be really an ecosystem where, you know, today we want everybody to thrive. Okay. And we were, we are very careful not to make Singapore a welfare state.
So as we, as we are focusing on making Singapore, in terms of the infrastructure to be ready, smart nation, we leverage a lot on technology and we want to make sure that, you know, we go digital, we invest heavily in AI and all that. So you can imagine why we do that. Because people is a very precious resource. I cannot afford to use my people or precious resource to do very mundane administrative work which a robot can do.
[00:14:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: So if you go to food court or a hawker centre that Singapore is quite famous for, where you have different stalls and all that, used to be you have people who go around cleaning the tables and the chairs or to serve food and all that.
Now it's quite common to see robots roaming around, delivering the food to your table and being very pleasant to you.
So as we move more towards being a smart nation and more tech enabled, we are looking at what are the skill sets that are needed.
So your example of Dubai, people running in a mall and all that. Also because we have a small footprint today, we have integrated some of our services.
So in some of the, it's not just a mall, it's like a community hall.
So apart from the physical infrastructure, the financial sustainability, health, we also want to make sure that social sustainability is there.
So we want to build that community. And to your point of immigration and all that, we actually have a third of our workforce in Singapore are foreign talent.
So whatever precious resource we have, whatever can be done by the robots and can be done by online and all that, let's use technology to do those work, let's save the higher value at work for humans to do and we make sure people are skilled enough.
So as you can imagine, if I don't have enough people and one third of my workforce, I bring in talent from around to region. So one third of my workforce are foreign talent.
Similarly, I make it quite comfortable for people to work together and live together in Singapore. And a lot of the foreign talent who come to Singapore, we want them to eventually hold Singapore home if they can contribute and if they would like to, you know, have their families here and all that.
So we make it quite comfortable for not only Singaporeans, but also for our foreign talent.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: So how do you drive that integration?
[00:16:40] Speaker B: So how we drive the integration is we are quite careful with the talent that we bring in.
So the employers will have to bring in the talent and support you in applying for your employment pass or work pass.
The Ministry of Manpower actually controls the kind of mix.
Okay.
So in terms of.
So we welcome people in. We also want our Singaporeans to go out and explore how things are done outside of Singapore and eventually maybe even come back.
So when you have a small country, a lot of the businesses that are in Singapore actually manages regional or global setup and they may have their regional or global headquarters in Singapore.
So for example, Dyson headquartered in Singapore.
So when you make the business environment lucrative enough, not only do they hire Singaporeans, they hire foreign talent, but because you are a global company, there are many opportunities for our local Singaporeans to be posted out of Singapore.
[00:18:01] Speaker C: Okay, So I must say, two way street.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: Yeah, so. So when I was working in Hewlett Packard and Agilent and Avago Technologies, I travel all the time and you know, I'm responsible for several countries that we operate in.
And even when I, I worked for a year or so in a not for profit organization for gain, the Global alliance for Improved Nutrition, that's based in Geneva. Okay. So, so because you, you give the citizens the exposure outside of Singapore for global companies to be attracted to the talent that we have, because we are quite diverse, we have been exposed and we know how to do business in a more diverse environment.
So the work environment we tend to be, we focus quite a fair bit on being inclusive.
Yeah.
[00:19:10] Speaker C: And so that inclusivity is really important because that obviously across the globe now the DEI kind of agenda is, shall we say, under pressure by certain forces.
Is it still alive and well in Singapore?
[00:19:26] Speaker B: Very much so.
And I would say that our focus on DEI is probably a little different from some other countries.
So we actually look at inclusivity a bit more than just being diverse for the sake of being diverse.
[00:19:50] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: So, so in terms of like foreign talent, we want to also make sure that, you know, Singaporeans have their fair share and fair opportunities to get into jobs after we upskill them and all that.
So, so we do have some policies or guidelines to say that, you know, you cannot like hire 100% of your people are foreigners.
[00:20:22] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: And then you have your footprint in Singapore.
Because then our question is, then why should, why should I support you?
Because, you know, I'm actually in a country where I'm trying to support the survival of Singapore and the Singapore economy.
So if you bring value and you want to locate here.
Similarly, in terms of the kind of workforce that we allow to come in, or when you apply for the work pass or employment pass, we are also pretty stringent.
We have a quota system.
[00:21:02] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: So the quota system basically allows the government to Balance the kind of workforce and the kind of skill sets that we want to bring in.
[00:21:14] Speaker C: Just moving on to talking about skill set because obviously one of the things that you're quite passionate about is education. I heard you talking about unlearning and relearning and the like. And we're living in a changing world and the pace of that change is, is breathtaking at some point and it has a lot of anxiety, it's developed anxiety. We're seeing it through our survey results just in workplaces across the globe.
And I'm just interested to know how do you drive an education agenda when we're really unsure what the world is going to be like in 3 years time? When you join a university course that lasts four years and you're kind of going to. How do you decide what people should be learning? Because this whole swathes of roles and jobs that AI is just going to, as you say, just, you know, take care of.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: Yes, so.
So you're absolutely right. The pace of change is at accelerating rate.
So when you graduate.
Actually our graduate employment rate is quite high. Okay.
For that matter, our statistically Singapore is actually still at a full employment.
Unemployment is less than 3%. Yeah.
So it is more jobs going after people rather than people going after jobs. Okay, so to your point or to your question of how do we make sure that we are keeping in pace with the change to be ready for the future? So the key word is skills. Future skills, future readiness to be exact.
So every one of us, actually the government gives us up to $1,500 in our account just for me to pick up skills.
So at a national level we will certify some training providers and we work with companies to tell companies, you know, you have to look at what are the skills that are needed not just now, but into the future.
Please go do your strategic workforce plans.
Okay.
And if you are investing in the skills for your workers, there are huge subsidies.
So again, between the union and the employers, the union is telling employers, let's form a career training CTC career training committee.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: Where.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: We will work with you to upgrade the skills of our workers at all levels. Okay.
So my company for example, will actually look at, okay, these are your skill sets that are needed for current role.
There are skill sets that are needed for the future jobs.
So the HR community actually works with the organization or the senior team to really look at are there things which we need to redesign the jobs so that it becomes smarter, more tech enabled. And when you use AI or you use robots and use RPA. Instead of having 10 people doing the administrative work, maybe I only need two because the rest are all automated. What am I going to do with the other eight?
So that workforce transformation is critical.
And what are the skills that are needed to start to transit people from what they are doing now to what they need to do in the future?
[00:25:19] Speaker C: And what have you identified? What have you identified as the key critical skills that will be required more in the new world of work?
[00:25:28] Speaker B: Oh, so a lot of the future skills needed.
Data analytics, cyber security.
Actually in the healthcare sector the skills are still highly sought after.
Okay. In the social sector as well, a lot of these skills on caring are still highly sought after in the healthcare sector, like the doctors and all that. And we have actually identified at a national level what are some of the key areas of automation going digital and so on and so forth, which we are shifting the population towards.
So we also believe in leaving no one behind.
So when we say we want to actually work on getting Singapore to be more digital, right?
So you would think, oh, what about some of the older folks who are not so savvy in terms of using apps and all that? So today our public service service counters is quite integrated.
You go there, there are 10 different services from public utilities to careers to social issues and all that. So if somebody goes into a public service center and say that, you know, I can't pay my utility bill because I cannot afford, can I ask for waiver for this month and can I delay and all that, actually there's a cures that you can indicate what help you need.
But because we have integrated and because of technology, we are able to do this.
You don't have to go to 10 different agencies, you just go to one public service center.
And while you're there to say that, you know, my utility bill I cannot afford to pay, then the officers will actually ask you, oh, where do you live?
Do you have children?
Are your children in school?
Are you working? Do you need a job?
So the children, the Ministry of Social and Family, are they in school? Are they not in school? Are they being fed?
Let us see how we can help you there. Utilities. That one is a small problem.
If you don't have a job, what's stopping you from getting a job?
Do you know how to write your cv?
Let me route you to the career center, teach you how to write a cv, tell you what are the opportunities available?
Is your wife working?
If not, what is the situation?
Do you have more children coming on the way?
How are you managing your finances?
One Stop.
[00:28:24] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Okay, so it's all linked use technology.
You make it easy for citizens.
At the same time, there are older folks who really are not very savvy, so we actually teach them how to use.
So there are apps on the phone. Many people. Well, actually, it's more than 100% of the people that have phones, because some people have more than one phone, like myself. I mean, yourself, I'm sure you have more than one mobile phone, right? More than one device.
But whatever device, Mobile device that you have, you know, if you are taking public transport, we will have an app that tells you, you know, use this public transport app, and then they'll tell you what time the buses are coming, you know, if you go from point A to point B, what bus to take.
So we are uplifting the capabilities of everybody in terms of digital savviness.
[00:29:27] Speaker C: Okay, and so your overall view then of AI and the impact it's going to have on society and the workplace, you're coming from a very positive point of view, are you?
[00:29:40] Speaker B: I am indeed.
So one of my colleagues, Peggy, when we were moving more towards, you know, using rpa, robots and automation and all that, so she was. She's in hr and she was doing business partnership, and she was telling me, you know, but, Cam, I'm not worried that robots will take over my job.
I will go and upskill myself and I will aspire to be a robot whisperer, and then I will be controlling all those robots that are doing all those mundane works that I've been doing, and I will control them. Okay, so that's the spirit that we're looking for. Yeah.
[00:30:27] Speaker C: So utilizing. Yeah, I was talking to somebody and they were sort of saying their salespeople now are, you know, five times more effective because all of the proposals are written by AI, all of those, you know, but. But the core critical skills that humans provide that can't be replicated by AI are the ones that are just going to be really in demand in this new world of work.
[00:30:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:51] Speaker C: And out of interest, and the working from at home, you know, we're seeing across the globe how CEOs, a lot of them have kind of given up on. On the concept, and they. They want people back. And there's tensions, and particularly, you know, okay, if your skills are madly in control, well, then are in demand. You have some, maybe flexibility to, you know, be allowed work from at home or the like, whereas other people are just told to come back to the office. That's. That's the deal. How's that playing out in Singapore.
[00:31:27] Speaker B: In Singapore, because Singapore is again, like I said, it's quite tight knit.
So during COVID of course we actually have quite strict guidelines or rules of during a certain period, everybody works from home, you cannot leave and you cannot even gather in big groups and all that. But since then, most companies or many companies in Singapore we have gone into a three days work from office, two days work from home.
So in general, even the public service, for example, we still hold on to the three days you have to come to the office, two days you can work remotely.
Okay.
And it's really based on the whole philosophy of working from home is not an entitlement.
And while we are saying that, you know, we really don't want you to spend a lot of commuting time that is unproductive and especially when you have traffic jams or you have peak hour traffic and all that.
So even for Singapore public service, for instance, because we have 120 different agencies all over the island, even though the island is not very vague from the furthest point to the one end to the other end, probably one hour max.
But we have different office locations and we have created what we call co working space.
So if you are staying more towards the west and you don't really need to come into the office which is in the east, because you don't need to have face to face meetings on that particular day and all that, by all means.
And if your house, your home is too noisy because you have a cat or a dog or something like that, it's not conducive for you to work from home. And also you don't want to spend money on your air condition, you could very well go to one of the offices in the east in the, the co working space and work from that office. Okay, okay. So it is really, you know, especially when we expect people to work for 50 years, for example, instead of 40 years, because you start working about 20, 25 and then we want you to work until 65, 70 or so.
We do want to make sure that you, you pace yourself and the quality of the work life of your career in your 50 year span, it must be sustainable.
So there will be peaks and throbs.
So if you don't have to go to the office because you, whatever you're doing, you can be more effectively done. Maybe you're writing some research paper and all that. I think, John, a lot of the work that you do, you don't need to go into the office.
[00:34:31] Speaker C: True, true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: So, so why do we insist that you must come here and warm the seat. Yeah.
So there are value in terms of benefits of coming together. You know, you build the relationship and so on and so forth and the bonding and the teamwork.
But it need not be five days a week. Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:54] Speaker C: I mean, I think certain people are better at working in isolation at home. People who are naturally more self disciplined, you know, because I often sort of say the fridge is very close by when you're working from at home.
You know, there's so many distractions and potential. But also I think what people miss sometimes is there is a, you know, the commute can be painful but, but it can also give you a time to decompress and just to, you know, run through the day and what happened and then transist into the, the social environment.
Because I know before COVID if I had told you I want you to bring your bed into work, I want you to sleep in here, you'd go, I can't sleep at work. But we're kind of doing the opposite now.
So it's interesting to see how this has evolved. But in a lot of companies they still see it as a benefit being allowed to work from at home.
So I think that's kind of interesting. And so you talk about of working longer and the need to pace yourself in that. So to me, I think, you know, recovery and being able to recover my energy and the like.
Is Singapore a more relaxed society? So in the workplace, am I going to experience less stress, a negative stress?
[00:36:18] Speaker B: No. Oh, so. So at one point I think we were talking a lot about four day work week.
Right.
So, so funny story, Singapore, we used to, we used to work five and a half days.
[00:36:41] Speaker C: Ah, okay.
[00:36:43] Speaker B: So Saturday used to be a half day that you have to work.
So when the former Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong took over and he actually made a change for the public service to say that, you know, we should move from five and a half days to five days.
So a lot of the American MNCs actually work five days.
[00:37:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: But a lot of the other public service and all the others groups tend to work five and a half days. So he made that change that, you know, public service work five days. Okay.
So we actually compressed the 44 hours from six days, six, five and five and a half days to five days. So you come in a bit earlier, you leave a bit later.
So it's not 9 to 5, it's probably 8, 8, 30 to 6 o' clock for that matter.
But the amount of work is the same yeah.
Okay. You just don't, you just compress that half day or four hours of work into the five days, which is very doable. Just add one more hour to the workforce.
So when we had our then Deputy prime minister, now Prime Minister Lawrence Wong, so he was addressing some of the public sector leaders.
So one of the questions asked during the Q and a was, oh, Mr. Deputy Prime Minister, what do you think of four day work week?
So his answer, it was very clear.
Like I said, Singapore is small. We don't have a lot of people, we don't have any natural resources.
Okay.
And if we want to continue to enjoy this standard of living, if we want to continue to enjoy this standard of growth and this level of gdp, we just have to work hard.
[00:38:57] Speaker C: So the four day work week is not going to be happening in Singapore.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: No.
[00:39:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm seeing that a lot across the globe. That conversation seems to have changed.
And the conversation is all about AI now and how can you be more productive in those five days that you're working.
So that's really interesting.
[00:39:20] Speaker B: But that said, I think how you deliver the work, yeah, that can change, sure.
So how do you become more productive? And when we say do more with less, it is not sleep less, it is actually be a bit smarter in how you do your work.
So the fact that I don't insist that you have to come to the office physically five days a week, couple of days, if you can work remotely, don't have to be from home, you can be working from any of the remote offices.
That saves you some commuting time. Use it wisely, don't use all those time just to go to the fridge, grab things and eat.
So we encourage you exercise more, go do some wellness program and we incentivize you to upgrade yourself. So if my company doesn't want to support me in taking up some programs or training programs, for example, I can actually use my own skills, future funds to go and upgrade myself.
[00:40:30] Speaker C: Okay, good.
[00:40:31] Speaker B: So I have 1500 for me to use.
[00:40:35] Speaker C: Right.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: And the best part is if a cost, if a program costs, let's say $10,000 and because I'm more than 50 years old, they say, oh, you're upgrading yourself and you're above 50 years old. There is a 90% subsidy, so you only pay $100 instead of $1,000.
[00:40:53] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: That's the kind of incentive we give to encourage even the older workers to continue to upgrade yourself.
The other thing that I have to say is we are seriously looking at how do I fractionalize Jobs because we bring skills and capabilities and we want the companies to really look at. Does this need to be done by one person in this job description? Yeah. Can you break it up into different kind of timing or different play into two half jobs so that you can tap on maybe some workforce that only want to work 50%? Yeah, so, so that fractionalization of jobs, especially with the onset of digitization and all that, that you can, a lot of things that you can do online or the things that you actually can, you know, either do gig, outsource or you just do part time. I think that will be a huge resource that we are embarking on to make it easier for people to pace themselves so that you really look at, you know, don't, don't just run a sprint for 50 years of your career lifespan.
Look at, look at it as like mini marathons.
And in between the marathons, one question I like to ask people is, you know, if you're working towards retirement, what is one thing you want to do after you retire? So some people tell me, oh, I want to go and do charity work. I want to spend more time with my, with my family and all that.
And I want to go holiday and all.
I want to be able to sleep and don't worry about having to wake up on time and all.
So I said, okay, fine, whatever you want to do, think of after you retire at 70 and you live to 100, you still got 30 years to go. Right.
And you want to make sure that you are of good health.
Otherwise by the time you hit 70, your dementia and you are not able to move, you're not able to go for your holidays and enjoy it. Yeah. Think about that one thing that you want to do, even if you want to go and build a charity home in Baku and a children's home, for example, consider whether, can you maybe take that part of the thing that you want to do, move it to within your 50 years career span, maybe when you're 40 or 45, take that six months and plumb it in between so that you have that natural break. Yep.
So I always tell people, if you're changing jobs, try to take a four month break because it is a natural break for you to just let go of the past, look towards the future and get yourself ready for that next phase in your life. Yeah. And a lot of people tell me, huh, big camp, six months, not working and just doing what I want to do after I retire.
Not possible. I say no. You take it as an investment in pacing yourself. And I Said, and look at it. 50 years career span, 6 months is only 1% of your 50 years career span.
[00:44:20] Speaker C: So, yeah, we really do need to rethink retirement, don't we? Because I know I have no interest in retiring because I love the work I do.
So it's really, it's finding opportunities to do things that you really enjoy and having more control over your time and your energy and how you deploy.
I just had it written down here and I meant to ask it earlier, but one question just about mental health and how in Singapore you're helping people in that regard because it's a big issue across the globe. Have you any advice in terms of.
[00:44:59] Speaker B: That for mental health? Yeah, yeah. So it's actually a huge agenda here in Singapore as well.
So to your point of your question earlier that I laughed quite loudly was whether, you know, in Singapore are things more relaxing in the workplace and all that, and give you a very clear answer. No. Yeah. So the pace of work is actually quite high.
And.
And also because Singapore is a very merit, Meritocratic society.
So even in schools it's very competitive. You know, everybody wants to score well.
And a large percentage, I think 60% of the student cohorts actually go into university and tertiary educations.
So when Singapore students go overseas, in overseas institutions, they usually top the schools.
So another data point you can tell, I used to be an engineer, because data.
Another data point that you can use is that if you look at the International Baccalaureate program, yeah.
Year after year, the one that have the highest IB scores is Singapore.
And IB is like a universal, right? Yeah. UK and US and all that.
Consistently, year after year, Singapore have the highest IB scores, the highest number of students that have perfect scores and the highest pass rate.
[00:46:47] Speaker C: So within a society like that where it's very focused on competition and the like, how do you. What are you telling people about managing their mental health?
[00:46:57] Speaker B: So it's like I tell people, please exercise self care. Okay.
So, so there are, like I said, the healthy lifestyle program that we run at a national level. And when I say we run at the national level, we actually do things like, you know, we have 1,000kg lost exercise or campaign.
So we ask people, you know, if you can lose so much weight, I will give you this incentive. And this is at the national level.
[00:47:36] Speaker C: Oh, okay.
[00:47:39] Speaker B: So we actually, apart from incentivize people to have healthier living and also imposing higher tax on unhealthy living or habits, so to speak.
So, for example, vaping.
Yeah.
Is it legal in your country?
[00:48:08] Speaker C: Oh, in our country. Yes, it is.
[00:48:10] Speaker B: It's not legal in Singapore.
[00:48:12] Speaker C: Okay, interesting.
[00:48:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:15] Speaker C: So you've taken a call on that. It's. It's bad. Yeah.
[00:48:18] Speaker B: Okay, so. So we've taken a call.
We. It's too late for us to say you cannot smoke anywhere in Singapore, but vaping is illegal.
So there are some policy stance that we take to make sure people have some wellness. Excuse me.
[00:48:43] Speaker C: No problem.
But it's really interesting that you seem to be connecting the physical health and the mental health really closely.
[00:48:58] Speaker B: Do you not agree?
[00:48:59] Speaker C: That is absolutely, absolutely.
[00:49:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
So.
So.
So we have quite a lot of initiatives apart from the physical health and those that are more mental health. We actually start at the schools.
Okay.
So schools, of course you have counselors and all that, but we actually train us kids in primary school and secondary schools to look out for their friends so that they can report and they can actually help each other.
So cyber bullying is a big thing. Okay.
Especially with teenagers. Yeah.
Okay. So we actually clamp down on those very hard.
And in the workplace, most workplaces have wellness programs.
So for example, my, my office.
Okay.
The office infrastructure or set up, we actually go to the extent of looking at, you know, there's some of our areas, maybe at certain times, let's introduce some soft music, let's introduce some fragrance and all that. So to help people relax as they are in this environment, we have sleeping pots where if you think that you're totally stressed, you know, go take a break.
We have football machines and all that. So many organizations have some of this wellness programs. And, and again, we also have employee, employee assistance programs.
We have, you know, counselors and coaches and all that. And in fact, in the public service, because actually a lot of people are very stressed with their careers and work.
So we find that coaching is actually a very good program to have to make available to all of public service. I used to have like 12 coaches and all that.
Now I have 480 coaches across public service.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:51:13] Speaker B: And. And they make themselves available.
And every time they open up to say that, you know, these are my available slots, anybody can just book a time with you to be coached.
[00:51:25] Speaker C: Okay, very good.
[00:51:27] Speaker B: So it's making available, looking out for the signs and offering the help.
And very often we use a third party service provider so that it remains confidential.
Even the coaching doesn't have to be from your agency, it could be from another agency, the coaches.
So these are some of the things that we are doing.
So the reason why I brought vaping into the picture is because, you know, nowadays people not just vape for the nicotine. Sometimes they lace them with Ectodermite or K pots.
And when we get cases like this and all that, so it's going to be made illegal, we will send them to the Institute of Mental Health and then the counseling and all that happens to make sure that the, you know, mentally, physically, financially, we will find them for.
[00:52:32] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:52:34] Speaker B: Vaping and all that.
[00:52:35] Speaker C: It's helping them manage addictions. Yeah, yeah. Because addictions are alive and well in the workplace, you know.
So listen, I have thoroughly enjoyed that interview, so thank you so much. And I really do look forward, please, God, to traveling to Singapore and maybe meeting you. Because I've been. I've been told by somebody that you're a brilliant baker. Is that true?
So. So we'll. We'll hopefully taste your. Your breads.
[00:53:08] Speaker B: But I like to.
I like to get to people's hearts through their mouth.
[00:53:14] Speaker C: It's the best way. It's the best way.
[00:53:18] Speaker B: No to desserts, right?
[00:53:20] Speaker C: Correct. Correct.
So listen, thank you so much and continued success in your future and in those leadership roles in the HR community because it's so, so important that we make sure that work is a healthy activity for people and that they can live wonderful, long lives as a result of that. So thank you so much for your time.
[00:53:41] Speaker A: That's the wonderful Pek Chem Lo, some fantastic policies focused on helping the population in Singapore live long and healthy lives.
Next up on the Work Healthy Podcast, we're going to be talking about the new approach to workplace design.
See you next time on the Work Healthy Podcast.
