Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hello there, I'm John Ryan and welcome to the next edition of our Work Healthy podcast. You know, many companies and organizations simply provide a space for people to work without fully realizing the impact that environment has other people and their performance. In this latest podcast, I catch up with Amari Aguilar, Senior Vice President EMEA from the International well Building Institute. In a broad ranging interview, we discuss many of the aspects that are crucial to consider in building design, like air, light, movement, sound, thermal comfort, nourishment, materials and many, many more. We also discuss some aspects you may not have considered before, like biophilic design, blue spaces and aquaponic farms. Surprisingly, we explore how insurance companies are often the ones driving the standards in healthy workplaces simply to reduce the negative impact and obviously the cost of claims. We also discover which buildings and workplaces inspire Anne Marie the most. And I actually first started by asking Anne Marie to explain what a sick building is and are there many around.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: It's actually how I got started in this business.
Back in 2010, the Royal Institute of British Architects had asked me when I was at my post in sustainable architecture, where do we see the built environment going in the next 10 years and why do we think sustainable buildings is the solution to sick building syndrome?
I did a lot of research around this topic.
Sick building syndrome started when we started to seal buildings tightly, when we thought that energy efficiency, the only way that we can improve energy efficiency is to potentially keep the windows sealed, control our internal environment and we will be able to save energy.
What that ended up doing is it ended up locking all the toxins inside the building.
And you always hear these crazy statistics. Now that says actually if you test indoor air quality, it could be seven to ten times worse than outdoor air quality.
When you think about outdoor air quality full of PM 2.5pm 10, all of the toxins from particulate matter, to be able to say that indoor environment could be seven to 10 times worse, it really flags the situation of having this sort of limited ventilation that's happening when you seal these buildings. And when I mention things like indoor toxins, that really comes from like the sealants and the materials that are used inside buildings. So if you don't have the right ventilation happening within the building, all of the finishes from the paints, the sealants that happen and are used inside furniture, the fire retardants that are sprayed on furniture, all of that is sealed in this indoor cavity and you're walking around in it all day long. So you're basically breathing all of the off gassing that's coming from these products, finishes, upholstery, clothing, wood. You think about all of the wood products that are made for kitchens and cabinetry, all of those have sealants and adhesives. And the tighter that we make buildings in terms of air tightness, in terms of energy efficiency, we are basically providing this sealed environment for all of these volatile organic compounds, or VOCs, to just proliferate. And then when you add the second layer in of things like cleaning products, you've just added another whole level of chemicals and gases that are now trapped inside this environment. So when well came along in 2014, our challenge was that if you look at the way a building experiences its costs, 5% of a building's cost is in the maintenance, 5% is in the energy use, and 90% of a building's cost sits within the people's salaries that sit inside that building.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: So our original challenge was if you focus on that 90% and you drive the productivity and the health and well being of that 90% cost, 5, 10% improvement, you're making a massive impact, much more than you would be by reducing the energy efficiency by 1 or 2%, because it's doing that at the cost of the health of the occupants of the building.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: And so would you believe that right now, since when you did the research and read research and the like, that it's transformed? Have people got the message or are there still a lot of sick buildings out there?
[00:05:38] Speaker B: No, definitely the message has been received. And one of the things that has done that, besides the awareness of the well building certification, the key parameter that we're talking about here is the fact that in order for a building to achieve well certification, it needs to have its air quality, lighting quality, acoustics and water quality tested before the building gets the certification.
So for the first time ever, you have real accountability post construction, post occupancy.
So the reason that that's so critical is that now we know for sure that a well building doesn't have high VOCs. It does not have high PM10, PM2.5. It matches its corresponding carbon dioxide limit, which also means that the building is not over populated based on the air quality it can provide.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: So for the first time now, because we mandate these tests to happen at the point of certification, there's no way around it anymore. Projects will not achieve certification unless they can prove that air quality actually moves.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: And I suppose they're the, you know, the organization progressive and go for these things, but I'm just wondering in the marketplace in general, what's your Perception as to how many buildings out there are actually damaging the health of people and impacting their performance.
[00:07:12] Speaker B: I mean, I definitely think if I look at our progress since we opened our certification pathway in 2014, so we're 10 years in now and we're close to 6 billion square feet over 130 countries now. Obviously 6 billion square feet still scratches the surface of real estate globally. But I think we have been able to achieve an awareness level around healthy buildings such that people are raising the awareness for their own management and leadership when buildings don't comply. I think we've given a lot of power back to the occupant to challenge what they see. People are now bringing in their own indoor air quality sensors into buildings, Right?
[00:08:02] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: I was at a meeting at an office building where someone brought their their own standalone air quality sensor and said, I don't know how much longer this building will continue to operate, but unless it meets the recommendations and requirements from the World Health Organization, you're not going to be able to continue leasing this space. So I think there is tremendous occupant awareness for the first time ever. And I still think there's probably lots of work to do. Like you said, probably the buildings that are really at the top of this framework are folks that are in A and B quality buildings.
And I think there are probably lots of people that, that get away with providing inadequate space.
But I think people are demanding more. And especially now that we have this challenge to get people back to the office and leave their home, I think companies are realizing they need to really work on the destination that is work the office that they provide to convince people to make the transport journey required and to leave the comfort of their own home.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: So I suppose just going through some of those aspects then. So the airpiece, what recommendations would you be making to organizations, you know, in terms of air quality and the like?
[00:09:34] Speaker B: I would say the first thing to do is to measure your indoor air quality. What you don't know, you can't really fix. And we've worked with schools where it was shocking to see how many schools have classrooms that are overpopulated. And all they really need to do is open the window every once in a while to refresh the air, since many of them don't have really sophisticated mechanical systems. So what you don't know, you can't really improve. So I would say buying a very simple device and understanding what type of pollution is coming into the building is critical.
And if you are in a space where you can open the window, it's not on a heavy, polluted highway. And you can see that by changing and increasing the air in your space is going to actually make it more comfortable. You'll have a massive impact in productivity because people's sense of productivity and awareness is directly related to the air quality in their space.
So that would definitely be one of them. The second one, which I think a lot of folks don't realize, is natural light.
Really making sure your space has access to natural light, obviously protecting computers from glare is also really important. But in general, making sure that you have sufficient natural light. If you don't invest in the type of lighting that changes during the day, it's called circadian lighting. What it does is it allows your body to work with the movement of light. In the morning, we have very blue light. In later afternoon, it's more of an orange light. And basically your body responds to that rhythm. If you're in artificial light for eight, ten hours a day without access to natural light, you're really preventing your body from sensing the natural rhythm of the outside light.
And that, you know, that is something. Again, with little investment, you could have that type of light and turn off the artificial light. That would be the best.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: Those fluorescent lights, are they. They're really bad for you, aren't they?
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah, any. Any artificial light that doesn't mimic the, the natural progression of light outside is really not doing us any good. Yeah, yeah. The other thing would be, again, going back to indoor air quality, Making sure that you don't have a lot of new furniture, or if you have new furniture in your space, let it air out or, you know, release all of its toxins somewhere else before you bring it into your space. Even if it's out outdoors is definitely the, the preference. Or in your garage. But leave something outside for a period of time before you bring it into your office. Especially if you're working from home, like if it's a desk or a chair, try and look for low VOC paints and finishes so that when you do paint an inside finish, you're not releasing more toxins. And then you're stuck in those rooms. We often hear people tell the story of, you know, they're bringing a new baby home from the hospital and meanwhile they've got, you know, a brand new crib that's probably got all sorts of, you know, formaldehyde on it, and it's got paints and finishes. And then you're leaving this newborn baby in this crib and you're like, okay, so really think about the types of paints and sealants and finishes and even cleaning products that you use in your house to kind of diminish the overload of chemicals.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it's incredible when you just. Sometimes you don't think about those things. But in terms of air quality, because I get it, you know, the opening the window and changing the air and the like, it makes a lot of sense. Oftentimes what you come up against is there's certain people in an office who'll be freezing and they won't want the window open. And somewhere. How do you overcome that?
[00:13:37] Speaker B: It's really challenging. I mean we've now started, I mean, but obviously you have to have a space big enough. We have thermal zoning that we recommend is one of the features from. Well, so that even on one standard floor plate you could have as much as 2 to 3 degrees difference in terms of temperature. And most of these offices now are kind of hotel desking. So you can pick and choose where you want to work.
And we basically are trying to give people as much variations because really if you look back at the building codes, they were designed for a 55 year old guy coming into the office in a three piece suit in the 1960s. And none of that's really been upgraded to reflect the fact that we're multi generational.
There's a lot more female in the working environment than there were before. And we have different temperature requirements and you know, designing for one, one condition is just not, not fitting the bill anymore. So we need to be much more flexible. We need to offer variation and also, you know, give people an opportunity to, you know, bring a heater or wear an extra sweater, you know, but really giving people the flexibility is really key.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: Absolutely key.
So sound is another aspect and we get a lot of talk about this where obviously even down to the ceiling heights, making a difference.
So what's your recommendation on that area?
[00:15:13] Speaker B: We've had so many interesting, so much feedback on sound and, and like you said, you know, we've all, we've all thought that open plan seating was the way to go without realizing that there's a high percentage of most populations in the office that are actually.
What's the opposite of outgoing?
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Introverted.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Yeah, introverted. And, and they really don't feel comfortable sitting in an outside space.
There's so much stress, noise stress that we're hearing from folks in an office environment who are constantly, because of where they're sitting, listening to other people's conversations, not being able to focus on their work.
So for us, what we've really come away with in terms of the mental impact of sound, is that you have to be able to offer variations in acoustic provision based on the task that people are doing.
And one of the things that we've really learned, one of the successful movements of the COVID working from home programming was that people actually got a lot more work done and they got a lot more work done at home because they were able to focus and get the kind of heads down desk time that they needed without, you know, constant interruption.
So definitely for us, the acoustic is all around acoustic zoning. So if we're looking to provide a space where people really need to have quiet around them, you design more of a library environment, extra acoustic provisions, and then you have gradations away from that, either a semi noisy space, a semi busier space where people can do a little bit of both. But definitely the message that I'm getting from a lot of the working environment and working designers now is that if you're really coming to the office to sit on zoom calls all day, that's not really the best use of the workspace. The workspace today should be used for collaboration, interaction, innovation.
And if being in a space where you need your head down and you need the quiet time, you're better off potentially having that hybrid situation where you get to stay at home for those times and come into the office for the times that you really need interaction.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: I mean, clearly it's one size fits all. Obviously doesn't.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. And this idea of moving everybody into an open plan office just doesn't work for those introverts. And I think the mental pressure and stress from being out in those environments and not not being able to signal that you need some privacy has been a real, a real awareness for, for, for folks in our business in terms of like the mental health impact.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, we see it because, you know, we're testing for control and obviously that's one of the things that people love is having some control over their own destiny. And specifically the work environment that you're spending time in, controlling that so that it suits you. So it makes an awful lot of sense. So the designers, I'd be interested to know what the latest designers are thinking in that. I also see water is something that is important, obviously not just drinking, but in many ways for a building.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Well, it's really interesting because we do a lot of testing of water, like to parameters that you wouldn't normally believe. Like we test for pesticides in water.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: And we test for antibiotics. So we feel that the more that we can Confirm to the end user that the water in this building is healthy. It does two things. It creates much more awareness of the water. So really making water a big feature of the space. And we have had some really amazing clients who've built beautiful water fountains in the middle of working floors. And the studies that have been done show, like, most things you were talking about before, about what kind of habits really increase awareness for health. One of them is hydration. And it's really funny. If the water is not present and a visible part of the environment, people don't drink water. So making sure that that's a massive component is really critical. I mean, and that's for a number of reasons.
They say that 87% of the day, most people are dehydrated. I mean, it's crazy. And dehydration leads to depression. Mental. You know, it supports mental acuity if you're not dehydrated.
Depression, obesity, you name it, is related to dehydration.
[00:20:23] Speaker A: It's incredible. I mean, like, I have to say, over the years, if I look at my past, I would have been madly dehydrated most of the time. Whereas now, obviously, it's my kids. I think they're trying to drown me, to be honest.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: Of course, they're constantly saying, what if? How much have you drank today?
[00:20:41] Speaker A: And they have these huge, big, huge tankards that they're bringing around themselves.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: The Stanleys. They're the American cups. They're like a liter.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: But, like, what's the right amount to drink every day?
[00:20:55] Speaker B: You know, they say it's at least eight glasses of water a day, but I feel like you can't over drink, so don't worry about drowning, John.
I do think it is the single best thing you can do for your health. And, you know, we see the whole movement now. If you walk into any office building, you're greeted by like a little cafe or a coffee barista. Like, it's really incredible how much we're trained to realizing it's okay to kind of grab a coffee whenever we want, but we're not drinking enough water. So I'm really proud of the hydration feature, and I'm so proud of what I've seen some of the designers really do to celebrate the benefits of hydration. So besides the testing, and again, when we first started doing water testing in London and in many cities around the world, people were like, oh, my God, this is ridiculous. Why are we testing for pesticides? And now it's become, obviously, the testing parameters have become so popular now that it's much more affordable, but also it's eliminated the whole plastics.
When a company does the water testing of what.
What the actual water quality is coming into that building and they spend the money testing 39 different parameters, they're very proud to show that their water meets the highest quality of testing. And all of a sudden there's no plastic bottles, there's no. So it's, it's a really great way of proving to people that the water that you're providing is, is the best quality.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's funny, so the water for drinking is one thing, but you were talking there about those organizations that put fountains in or the like. I mean, water by its nature is a very calming thing, isn't it? You know?
[00:22:46] Speaker B: Yes, yes. I mean, I've been in projects in the Netherlands, I have to say, some of the projects I've been where the. Not only is the water feature for hydration, but it's also the sound of water throughout the building. So that's, you know, another of the concepts that we focus on. Probably the first one in any kind of building rating system is the concept of mind and understanding that there are parts of real estate that we've missed the opportunity to understand that there's a massive impact on the human spirit. If we design spaces for regenerative health, we call them like blue spaces where there's a water feature or.
You probably heard tons of conversations now about biophilic design.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: Where we're really understanding that having human access to nature, even as simple as views to the outdoors, can have like a 7 to 10% impact on people's productivity and sense of well being. The things that, you know, gone are the days where. And I worked in one of these in Manhattan in the 1980s, where you're on the 37th floor of a building and it's basically cubicles all the way down. And yeah, you never had access to a window or views to the outside. You were just expected to do your work. And now those days are gone. People are not willing to sit and they just realize the impact that we have when we are close to nature, when we're close to natural materials. I mean, biophilic design doesn't just mean putting a plant in the room. It means using materials that are made of wood. Timber have natural patterns and symbols and it's just incredible how the mind reacts to these environments and can allow people to de. Stress so much quicker.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: I was in Seoul, in South Korea in one workplace and they actually had a. Stables, riding stables. What I thought that was fantastic.
It just changed people's, you know, view. And so I think when you walk into a workplace that has put, you know, a lot of effort into the design and as you say, using those materials, it just makes a difference. And I know, me personally, I'd perform so much better in that environment rather than, you know, locking me in a big skyscraper. That would be nightmare stuff to me.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: No, exactly. Same here. I mean, there's a new project that's just been completed here in London. It's GlaxoSmithKline GSK.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Yep, yep.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: Their new London headquarters. And I went to visit about a month ago and they took us downstairs. They've built the largest aquaponic farm in Europe in the building.
So you can go downstairs and they're able to generate as much food as the entire building will need in this aquaponic farm.
And they also have a chef's table down there, so they can actually bring their clients and their coworkers. They also have a full service cafeteria on the ground floor. So all of the greens that are being grown are used inside the cafeteria. But it's just an incredible, again, this concept of creating something for much more than. It's like instant use. Nobody would have thought, let's use our entire basement level to generate our own food.
Now they have a product that can be used inside the building is there for, I don't know how many students they bring in from local schools to learn about this concept of growing your own food. Then they provide the food inside the building. Like, there's just, it's just so inspiring to see what we are starting to see companies like a pharmaceutical company do for their people.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: Because that's one area. The nourishment obviously is what you talk about.
How do you decide? Because there's so many views as to, you know, what's good food and what's not good food or the like. How do you, where do you come down on that or where do you get your lead from?
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Well, you know, we've had, we've had a lot of reaction to our nourishment concept back in the day. We've, we've had catering companies within buildings say, look, like you can't take sugar off the menu, like you can't take cans of soda off the menu. People will go nuts.
So what we've, what we've had to do is we, we have definitely been able to successfully diminish the size of what we think is allowable sort of sizes of cans with sugar.
We've also what we really strive to do is make information available about the food so that people have the option and understand the choices that they make.
[00:28:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:05] Speaker B: So really sharing nutritional information, sharing caloric value, moving some of the really bad foods from the, you know, the eyesight of the viewer or, you know, waiting until the last minute before the cash register to have the sweet candy. We've really managed to kind of instill some real behavior change.
Again, going back to that thought process, how do you actually allow the healthy choice to be the easier choice so that you're really training people to think differently? So one of the things that's part and parcel to that is really portion control. So changing the size of plates, changing the size of portions.
So really trying to give people different senses of what can keep them full without kind of resorting to large portions. But yeah, the nourishment. Again, we've seen incredible.
Some companies who've really taken this to a whole new level where they have cooking classes inside the buildings, all with the nourishment concept that we provide. I've been invited to cooking classes for buildings that are just opening and wanted to share their love for the fact that they're now bringing food to their staff so that they're not coming back and kind of sleeping at their desk from 2 to 3, really making sure that the choices that are offered gives folks a real selection. I mean, I've really been incredibly blown away by what I've seen people take as sort of guidance from us and then just take it to a whole new level.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: That's great. I mean, you talk about people coming back to their desks and, you know, kind of collapsing and sleeping. Movement obviously is really important, isn't it, in a workplace? And I know we get tied up with our work and suddenly, you know, three hours and you haven't moved. How. What are you seeing for organizations in the ways that they're encouraging people to do that?
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I definitely have. I've been Madrid, there's a company, cbre, big project management company.
They have an office in. In Madrid and they had little, you know, steps under the desk so people could do walking while they're standing. Definitely the sit stand desks are really popular. I've had. I've seen buildings where they've put a track on the roof and they've got people that are up there doing walks during the day.
I think in general, this whole idea of creating different spaces for people to do their job has been the biggest success in getting people to move throughout the day because People like variation. I mean, most people want to be able to like change their environment. And I think giving people an environment for serious heads down work, giving people an environment for a much more interactive environment is providing people with options. And I think that has helped create this movement because, you know, the sedentary lifestyle that we've all gotten into, and especially prior to Covid, where people would be commuting for an hour a day, sitting, getting into their office, sitting for another six, eight hours, has just let us become this very, very sluggish participant. And I think the idea now that we're creating more spaces, even places where people should be eating, like getting people to leave their desk at lunchtime by creating beautiful spaces where people can eat.
This whole idea of food has changed the way that the office environments are working so that we're getting the movement just by creating these different spaces to work.
[00:32:09] Speaker A: Yeah. To me, what I'm seeing more and more now is the ability to recover regularly is, as they say in America, a superpower.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:32:22] Speaker A: But it really is that ability. I mean, the body does it and can do it, but we don't give it a chance to do it. Whereas an organization and a building can provide that opportunity for people to make it easier for them to actually go to recovery zones.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. This whole idea of, I guess 30 years ago, you'd join a company, they'd give you like a discount to a local gym membership and Bob's your uncle now. I mean gsk. Another thing that was amazing about their space is they have a full service gym on the top floor of the building, not in the basement.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: And any staff member, any visitor, any consultant, cleaning person that works in that building has access to the gym.
[00:33:10] Speaker A: Right. That's nice. That's nice.
[00:33:12] Speaker B: So again, you're trying to make physical activity part of someone's life, not an afterthought, not something they have to do when they get home and it's 7 o'clock at night and they finally fed their kids and they're like, oh, you know, they really realize that by giving people the flexibility to integrate movement when they, when they need to, when they have access to it, is going to be a far better benefit than just hoping that they do it at some point.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. The integration is the key. To me it is.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: And like you said before, making it easy, making it a non thought.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
Because you know, in the data obviously that we have, most people admit that they're unfit and you then find out why are you unfit? And they say, I don't have the time. So they've prioritized other things other than their own health and fitness, which is just a disaster.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: Organizations, if they want high performance and sustainable high performance, need to provide people with the opportunities to integrate. So I think that's really, really important.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: And John, the other side of that, which is really rapidly approaching, which I'm finding really interesting these days, is the health insurance companies are working with the occupier and basically saying, hey, like we see, we notice that musculoskeletal issues are really high within your staff profile. So you know what? We're not gonna, we're not gonna request your staff to go to a GP to get approval to go see a physio. You know, we're gonna do next week, we're gonna, we're gonna bring a physio into the office for a month and see what happens.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:53] Speaker B: The insight that health insurance companies are actually getting from their customers is actually providing much quicker turnaround because the health insurance companies are just not waiting until the claims get big enough. They're going right back to the end user and they're saying, look, let's see if we can nip this in the butt asap. Yeah, it's going to benefit you as the end user. It's going to benefit us in terms of long term claims. So let's figure out what we need to do. And that I think is going to be the next generation of where Healthy Buildings is going to go is how are the insurance companies processing the data and how are they going to potentially use the data to create more of a relationship with the, with their client and be able to provide quicker turnaround.
[00:35:51] Speaker A: And the risk element there too. You know, they want to reduce risk and they want to reduce things. Exactly, yeah. It's funny, with regard to movement, you were talking about the gyms and the like at the top floor. One of the things I loved, one of our clients, Dubai Police Force, they've introduced gym walls. So rather than having a gym as a place that you have to go to, they've actually brought the gym to the people in the departments. So it's kind of there a little mini gym you can get up and go over to and lift a few weights and do a few stretches. So I think that's a different way of looking at it and I think it's brilliant. It's. What we've got to do is integrate it all.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Yeah. We've got to make it so easy that people just don't say no.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And so Esthetics, I'm interested in that, like, you know, you use the word there, the, you know, beautiful spaces and the like. What are you seeing in that regard?
[00:36:42] Speaker B: I'm seeing a lot of biophilic design in very interesting forms.
Not as simple as just creating a room full of plants, but using wood as a material that people are feeling much more at ease with. It's hard, it's hard to imagine. I mean, we once in my previous career, I was with a company called Arup and we designed a timber building for sky tv.
And when the building was going up and people, you know, the columns were being put in, they had round the clock cameras and they were watching people going up and like putting their arms around these timber columns.
And it was so interesting to see that people had a completely different reaction to a building of timber than a building that's made out of concrete and hard surfaces.
And I would have to say, you know, architects, years ago you were designing buildings for people. But you know, we've obviously are such a busy profession that I sometimes you realize that like the impact of space, the sense of delight and joy and the sense of what a space can do for a human in terms of their mental approach, I think is being really looked at in a different way today. And I think we're now looking at designing for neurodiversity and for folks who are really struggling with things like attention deficit disorder or autism.
And we're understanding that if you design buildings for people that have different aspects of understanding of the way the world works, you're designing a much richer environment for everyone.
[00:38:47] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:38:48] Speaker B: And I think that is becoming such a beautiful way of seeing space. Like every building I go into now, there seems to be a lot more focus on art and light and natural materials and natural symbols and patterns.
And overall you just seem to sense buildings feeling much more human than they have been. And I think that has been a massive step in the right direction.
So, yeah, I would say like we're really seeing restorative spaces, regenerative spaces, spaces with water, with food, with inherent natural abilities to see outside, to encourage things like gardening and food collection. Like, there just seems to be a lot of focus on what else can be done inside a building than just productivity.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: Yeah. No longer is it just a box, you know, that you put people in for eight to 10 hours. Yes, thank God. Because you mentioned art there. I was in a law company recently and the stairwell had, you know, it was covered in stunning art and it was just, it was a joy to walk the stairs and obviously, yeah, I always say to people, because I'm not a fan of elevators, that, you know, there's a reason why they call it a stairwell because if you use it, you'll probably be. Well, yes.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: And actually, like you said, John, that's been another massive area that I've seen improvement on is people doing so much more with lighting, with music, with.
I've seen poetry being inscribed on the steps.
Anything to inspire people. And again, because most people won't take the stairwell unless you keep your elevator bank somewhere not so visible, the stairwells have become these incredibly inspirational spaces that people are just surprised when they get in there and they're like, wow, people have actually thought about this space.
[00:40:54] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So that is definitely because I'm claustrophobic by nature. And so normally I'm, you know, when you go to a building, they just automatically take it that you're going to use an elevator.
[00:41:05] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:41:06] Speaker A: And. And it's so much better, you know, too.
[00:41:09] Speaker B: Oh, so much better.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: I. One building I had to go behind a magic door to actually find the actual stairwell, you know, but you're right, the music piece also, I was in a building in London, Vattenfall, and when you walked in, it was like going into a nightclub. The mood music was there and it just set the tone. It was really cool.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Yeah. The other building, if you get a chance, is Bloomberg's building in London by Fosters and Partners. They have numerous wooden staircases throughout the whole central.
Yeah, it's incredibly impressive. And again, you can see all the different parts of the building. You can see all the floors, you can see the people you need to connect with. It just has a completely different level of connectivity than being in an elevator going from one floor to the next.
[00:42:02] Speaker A: And for you, you've been around so many buildings around the world. Let's say what ones really stand out and inspire you?
[00:42:10] Speaker B: I guess I would have to say the, the edge buildings in Amsterdam have always, you know, they're the ones that have like a massive water feature in the middle of the, of the ground floor. And that was seven years ago. So they, they were always the ones to kind of really figure out how to take a feature and just put it on its head. The other, the other city that's been amazing for that is in both Stockholm and Malmo, buildings by a developer called Castellam that again, have used music and stairwells and poetry and food.
You know, folks who. I think there are certain cultures in Europe that I think have really.
Well, being has been such a big part of Their almost their general sense of work, life balance that they looked at some of the well features as a chance to really play with the quality of design. I think similar in Spain and Italy we see again another level of real enjoyment with things like outdoor spaces.
You know, their climates allow for much more of a year round outdoor space and walkability. So I think the cultures have really taken on really unique ways of looking at well. But I think the architecture field themselves I think has looked at well as an opportunity to really get back to why we do design buildings. We design them for people. And for years, like you said when we were talking about sick building syndrome, you know, the built environment became a place that engineers were trying to solution something really energy efficient. And out of that vision, which is obviously very important, we want to reduce as much carbon as we can into the environment.
So having a sustainable building is obviously a good choice. But I think we need to be looking at more of a parallel sustainability, human and planet and really understanding that these are spaces where people spend 90% of their time. They can't be places where the air quality is 10 times worse than outside.
They can't be dark environments where we're not able to see nature. It's not good for our human condition.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I can't believe we're nearly out of time. I suppose just my final question to you is just looking at post Covid and looking at now this leaders wanting people back to the workplace. What advice would you be giving to those leaders to try and make that a more attractive option rather than trying to mandate people to come back, that people will actually want to be in those spaces?
[00:45:14] Speaker B: I would definitely say don't bring them back to have them sit on their headphones and dialing into meetings. Have them back for interactive experiences, for team building, for understanding how to innovate, solve problems and use the space to bring about that type of connectivity. So not some big open plan area, but real collaboration hubs, people who could come in as groups and really work together on problems that they can't solve on the other end of the phone. But also if you're going to bring people in, provide them with really beautiful experiences, make sure that the spaces that they're in have a lot of access to nature, make sure the food you provide for them is of highest quality and allow them to kind of build on the sense of community and benefit of being in the same place as opposed to looking at it as a productive machine. They can do all that productivity if they have to on zoom calls. But I think the space for buildings today is about really building an opportunity to communicate, facilitate discussion, solve problems, innovate. How can you do things better, quicker and use that time to establish those kind of really strong bonds of trust? Because then when people are apart and they have to work together, the bonds are so much better.
[00:47:00] Speaker A: My thanks to Amari for a really interesting and insightful look into building design and its impact on people. I have to say I was really shocked to know that indoor air quality in workplaces can be up to seven to ten times worse than outdoor air quality and also why most of us are spending our days dehydrated. It probably explains an awful lot about our performance. I do hope you enjoyed that interview and do join me again for another episode of the Work Healthy podcast where amongst others we'll be joined by the global CEO of Carlsberg. That will probably be one of the best interviews. See you then.
